Recently, in my clan, we have started a discussion about donations. One Elder believes that some folks are taking advantage by taking significantly more than they give. He proposed a Minimum Number of Donations (like 100 a week or so). Another Elder has argued that we should let peer pressure and norms of reciprocity work on these folks. I have mixed feelings. While I think it is good to let our members know what is expected of them, I am concerned that bright line rules often lead to legalistic questions (why not 99?) and end up in absurd or ineffective rules. I've posted this question with the hope that this marketplace of ideas can help our clan makes the wiesest choice. Thanks for your thoughts. DC RW
In my opinion you really want to be careful about monitoring donations too carefully. Obviously people can only donate as much as there are requests to fill, and any type of peer pressure to "donate close to what you receive" actually ends up causing people to stop making requests, which in turn causes donation counts to go down, etc. It really can be counter-productive.
Some people really like to donate. Others may have all of their builders busy on long projects and don't have a lot of need to raid for a day or two. Some may have full elixir storages and are trying to do something productive with it rather than having their next raid go to waste. Whatever the reason, you are going to have several people in your clan that have far more donations sent than they do donations received. By definition, then, you will have others that will have more troops received than donated. To me that's just a consequence of a healthy clan.
I do believe that everyone should make a point of donating at least a little bit, of course. Minimums are a good way to go, but be careful not to set them too high. 100 per week isn't too bad; I wouldn't go a lot higher than that, though. Depending on what your other Elder meant by peer pressure and reciprocity, that can also be a useful tool. Back when I was in a clan that had no policy about donations, we had several people who refused to donate at all. I as a clanmember had two choices: I could either leave, or just not donate to those people. It took a little extra work, but for a few weeks I would look them up on the clan list to see if they had donated yet that week, and if they hadn't I would leave their request alone. The other regular donators started doing that too, and pretty soon those people either left or started donating themselves.
Whatever you choose to do, though, make sure you do two things: discuss it among your clan and get general (not necessarily unanimous) agreement, and then publish it. It's very important to document exactly what you expect of your members, preferably right on the clan info screen if it fits. You are correct that hard-and-fast rules can lead to complaints regarding why certain rules were selected, but if you do those two things then the answer to those complaints is very simple:
We had to choose something, and this particular rule was what was discussed and agreed to by the clan.
Your continued presence in the clan indicates knowledge and acceptance of these rules (i.e. you were, and are, free to leave if you don't wish to abide by them).
Edit: Make that three things. I forgot the most important part: enforcement. Once you agree to and document a rule, you really need to enforce it. If you do indeed find it's a silly rule, that's fine, you can change it. But don't ignore it, or worse, selectively enforce it. People will adhere to a rule if they know it will be enforced, but if they see others get away with it, they will do the same thing. And if they start seeing it enforced only occasionally, that's where the drama really gets going.
Personally I wouldn't even care about a 1 to 2 ratio. 500 troops donated is actually a fair amount of troops. It very well may be that he's already filling every request that he can, so the only way he could "improve" his ratio would be to stop requesting, which in my opinion isn't the answer at all. I'm usually over 2 to 1 the other way in my donations, which means I'm probably making someone else's ratio look bad.
Again, my personal thought is if you are having trouble with people not donating at all, at least make sure people are donating the minimum, and even enforce donating before requesting. That usually takes care of people who fire off donation requests right after finishing a raid and have no troops to reciprocate with (and then immediately raid once their camps are full and start the cycle all over). But I really do think in this case that the additional information has caused more problems than it has solved.
I think you guys have raised another valid point. Namely, the raid to time ratio. I would suggest that folks who a very focused on raiding or even trophy hunting, will either be actively raiding or waiting for troops to get produced. Thus, as soon as their camps are full, they are off to raid. Whereas, those who raid at a more lesiurely pace will have more time when their camps are fill and they are on-line to respond to requests. I would also note that folks who are waiting out a shield also donate more than those who aren't under a shield. Also, am I the only person here who feels higher ranking players need to set the example by donating the most and best troops?
When I am in my down time (all builders occupied or if I'm not actively attacking), I have millions of elixer to blow on donations. I will usually max out Dragons (level 2) and Wizards (level 4) and donate them throughout the period. If I am feeling a little crazy, I'll pump and donate dozens of level 4 Balloons. It makes for a great show once I am ready to start attacking again (if only I could see the faces of the guys I demolish with 40 level four Balloons). If I am "actively attacking", I will usually give Giants.
Everyone knows that it is harder to donate troops while you are attacking, so if everyone at least makes sure they donate in their down times, the clan will thrive.
A 1 to 2 Troop Donation Ratio, or "TDR" for nerd talk, is plenty acceptable. But to say it is not attainable in even a moderately active clan is ludacris. There is nothing wrong with people seeing that their TDR is below 1 to 2, and actively pumping troops and donating them to catch up. I think it is the best way for overall clan growth.
Anyone who can't donate more than HALF of what they are receiving is a free loader!
I do the exact same thing when I have maxed my elixir and either am waiting out a shield or my builders are all busy. I just fill up all of my barracks queues with dragons and donate as many as possible. If I'm not donating dragons I usually stick with archers unless there are specific requests for something else.
I completely agree with you as well. If everyone at least took the time to donate during their off-times there wouldn't ever be a problem with donations.
When I am raiding, I usually try to queue 10 or so archers right when I get back from a raid as well so I can take care of the existing donation requests; then I can make my own request while my army trains.
No one is stopping you from establishing a 1 to 2 "TDR" as the baseline for your clan. If you think it's acceptable, and more importantly your clan thinks it's acceptable, then that's totally up to you.
I just don't think it's necessary to police donations to that extent. Even if your "reasonably active" clan, I would bet that 500 donations is pretty close to average. To me that's perfectly acceptable. At that point I don't care if they have 100 donations received or 1,500; they are contributing donations just as frequently as everyone else, and as long as people are content to donate to them, I don't see the problem.
Just because there are requests in the queue doesn't mean you have to fill them. If you really feel that someone is taking advantage of everyone else's generosity, I guarantee leaving their requests unfilled for a while will get the message across loud and clear. But improving your ratio quickly isn't as easy as it sounds, especially if you have a lot of requests already. You would a) have to stop requesting for a while and b) very likely donate a lot of cheap troops that take up a lot of housing space. Those types of troops probably aren't what people really want anyway; donating crap just to be donating doesn't help anyone either.
Personally I'm more concerned about the guy with only 10 donations (even if he only has 10 troops received) rather than the guy with 500 donations and 1,000 troops received. But if your clan operates differently, more power to you.
"500 donations is pretty close to average"? What does that even mean? There is no such thing as "donation average". Like I said earlier, it has to be a RATIO. If you average out everyones donations, it just mirrors the average of troops received. All it tells you is what donations would look like if they were spread out evenly amongst all members. It means absolutely nothing. Members must be evaluated by their ratio. Someone who donates 10 and receives 10 is fine despite their inactivity, so bad example, but their ratio is 1 to 1.
There is also no such thing as "donating crap" that takes up a lot of housing space. I believe those are called Giants, and I have never heard anyone complain about getting them because they are essential in almost all attacks.
I don't quite understand any of your logic. You are saying that "donating crap just to be donating doesn't help anyone either". Really? Since when is having an empty Clan Castle better than not? Troop requests don't last all day. They need to be filled and used to attack, and if it takes so called "crappy Giants" to get it filled without expiring, then it is helping! If someone wants a Dragon for a revenge or defense, great, just ask, other than that you are most likely going to get Giants, which should 100% be the standard Clan Castle filler for people on attacking sprees unless requested otherwise.
For the record, I am personally not concered with a guy who donates 500 and receives 1000 for the time being. It is the guy who is ALWAYS below a 2:1 ratio.
so in my clan we only donate what people ask for and that results in me getting alot more received than given, but not becuase i dont donate, its because i can only give 5 troops and when others donate to me i get 20, so saying ratio is everything is completly wrong.
also nobody wants giants in my clan Jdsr4c
Players cannot expect to get units better than Giants EVERY single time. And seriously, Giants are good.
People who "don't want Giants" clearly don't know what they are doing if they can't cruise through this game with nicely upgraded Giants waiting for them every attack. I have been dominating all the way up to Level 8, and I will continue that trend. YOU win battles, NOT your Clan Castle. But like I said, if I need something for a planned battle (like for Revenges), or for Defense, then great, I might ask for a dragon or whatever, if I NEED it.
If you expect and need All-Star units for every single attack, then well, you are probably a spoiled newb.
And the ratio is not wrong. One Giant (worth 5) is superior to 5 archers. There is a reason why each Giant takes 2 minutes to build and thousands more elixir. Donating archers, barbs, and goblins is week. Those are small units you make yourself that take hardly any time to create.
Sigh, Jdsr4c. I'm not personally attacking either you or your logic, so I would appreciate it if you would offer me the same courtesy. Resorting to hyperbole and namecalling doesn't help you make your arguments; it just makes you argumentative.
Of course there is such thing as an "average donation." The reason "average donation" means something in this context is the same reason "average" means anything in any context. Is this person an "average" contributor or a "below average" (or "above average") one? You have chosen a ratio to make that determination; I have chosen an average.
I didn't mean giants specifically as 'crap'; I was more referring to just dumping your cheapest and most plentiful troop regardless of what people were asking for. But since you brought it up (and as Llor points out), I'm surprised that you haven't run into more people who don't like giants in their clan castle. In every clan I've been in I see a quite a few complaints about them (and now that we can request specific troops, I see a lof of "no giants or goblins"). Whether that's because they don't fit their attacking style, or don't want them because they plan on using them for defense, I don't know. I agree they are better than an empty clan castle, but unless you've waited until their timer is nearly done, you've prevented someone else from donating a troop they might really want. Of course, some people really do like them, so donate away to those folks.
I do happen to disagree, though, that they should be the standard clan castle filler; I personally would prefer a clan castle full of archers over a clan castle full of giants. But again, if your clan likes giants, great.
And I also disagree with goblins and archers and barbarians being weaker than giants. Individually, of course they are, but the point of the Tier 1 troops is they take up so little space. And yes, a giant takes 3,000 elixir and 2 minutes to train. But five archers takes 1,500 elixir, and 2 minutes and 5 seconds to train. Per housing space, giants actually take less time to train than anything other than barbarians.
I didn't mean to offend any newbs with my harsh namecalling.
I am surprised at that as well. People do request archers and I have no problem giving them, but when Giants are flowing between the top half of our clan members, we are extremelly productive, so I assumed that it was pretty standard. It is certainly more simplistic and efficient being able to completely fill someone's Castle quickly with beef.
Taking all units into account, the ratio should be more like 1:4 then. That way, a Clan Castle 3 (20 housing spaces) can donate 5 archers for everyone full Clan Castle (whether is be 4 Giants or not). Still low in my opinion. But if you are looking for mathematical reasoning besides just guestimating your own averages, that would probably be it.
Any member with a Clan Castle higher than 3 would have to be pathetic or selfish to consistantly have below a simple 1:4 troop donation.
Another important note: The clan donation numbers need to be reset every few weeks or so. Maybe even by month or a little more.
One last thing. When Level 4 5 and 6 Giants are donated to inferior Town Halls, they absolutely dominate. I guess not everyone can figure that out. Guys at the bottom with 2 and 3 star units should be greatful for anything significantly higher than what they can build and should not be picky.
I definitely agree with you on several points. When I was lucky enough to receive high-level giants at TH5 (which didn't happen often, I was in a pretty small clan back then) they were pretty devastating. High level troops of any kind can be very useful at lower Town Hall levels.
I could also not agree more regarding the reset. Better yet, I would prefer a rolling total (e.g. the previous two weeks) so it never actually resets at all.
And finally, I could go for a 1:4 donation ratio, as I agree, that should be relatively easy to maintain. In fact, I never had a real problem with the 1:2 ratio. It's really all about what works for the clan. If you've been successful with the 1:2 ratio, I see no reason to change it. The key is being consistent and enforcing it fairly.
Indeed. If it's working, it's working. 1:4 is very reasonable, but I guess when we see someone who is consistantly below 1:2, mentioning something about increasing donations isn't out of line. I will keep in mind that 1:4 is more along the line when you should start worrying that someone is thinking about themselves more than the clan (of course this would be more of a factor if the person is TH7 and above and less if they are weak).
Maybe any TH<TH7 1:4 should be minimum and any TH>TH7 1:2 (or 1:3 to be generous) should be minimum. TH 7 really is the turning point of the game, and IMO, the most resourcesful and prosperous TH Level. Everyone should be sure to upgrade all defense and units here. You are able to max out your resources, and take advantage of the looting ratio, which is fantastic. When my strong TH7 attacks weaker TH7-TH10's, the payout is great!
One more thing I would like to interject: Not everyone uses Castle Troops the same way. Even the same player uses them differently at different times. I love a dragon when I'm getting ready to retire for the evening. A castle full or Giants or Barbs don't help when you're being attacked by airborne troops, but I love to have some high level giants to help out as a meat shield when I'm using my Castle Troops in an offensive capacity. I would also note that some players use their castle troops on every attack and this can really skew their ratio's. Some rarely use castle troops to attack (like me, for instance). Point is: different playing styles can make a huge difference in a players ratios.
I left and started a new clan primarily because the leader never had a positive donation ratio. You will always get some who donate a lot so logic dictates that there will always be others who have a negative ratio. I encourage people to at least keep up with 1:2, especially the higher level people. Hard rules will always lead to conflict though...